Thursday, October 16, 2008

Regimental Flags

This is not by any means a final set of flags. I just needed some flags for the paper figs and the 10mm mini regiments I am painting up until I can work on the design some more. I think that I want to incorporate Saint Sebastian into the Cavenderian flag. As Cavenderia was originally populated by fleeing Irish Catholic emigres I thought there would be no better symbol than the martyred saint and patron of soldiers. I am not sure how regiments generated the colors for their flags. I am sure that some units used their facing colors in portions of their flags, but looking at French flags I can discern no reasoning behind the colors. Above is a rough draft of some regimental flags and a couple Leib battalion flags. I will post uniforms for IR-6 and IR-7 along with some notes on the regiments in future blog. Finally, Inhaber Jung has promised another green coated regiment soon.

"Look to the flag, look to Saint Sebastion, pierced and bleeding he would not die and under this guilded icon this regiment shall not succomb to the weapons of our enemies!!!"

Graf Karl Gustav moments before his death.

Here is a link to a short biography of Saint Sebastian.


Bluebear Jeff said...

Prinz Geoffrey,

Most SYW infantry flags were square (rather than rectangular).

As for the French system of flag colors . . . I doubt that even the French had any idea as to why certain colors were chosen for their standards.

There usually was some sort of 'constant' within an army. This might be the WHITE cross of the French, RED cross of the English (and Irish Wild Geese since they felt they were serving the TRUE KING in exile) or the central devices of many German states.

I would suggest that you find a 'constant' for Cavenderia . . . and, yes, Saint Sebastian could certainly be it or part of it.

I look forward to future designs.

-- Jeff

abdul666 said...

Prinz Geoffrey,
a very promising first draft!
Jeff is right, Lace Wars infantry flags were practically square (and quite large, # 2 meters / side).
The French system... was practically a lack of: the oldest regiments had a single color -red for the most senior, Picardie, since red was one of the two 'royal' colors, and perhaps the 'bandes de Picardie' raised at the end of the Middle Ages had Swiss drillmasters. 'Younger' regiments then had to use 'non-heraldic' colors or / and to combine several colors to have their 'own', original, flag. The British system on the opposite was rigorous, regiments using their facing color for the 'field' (background) of their regimental flag: you can follow such venerable historical precedent!.

Your 'excentred' cross was, I believe, mainly used by Baltic / Scandinavian countries that happened to be Protestant... Besides, I believe such flags with 'excented' cross were, at first, used as national 'jacks' at sea (to hav ethe device visible even with very little wind?). The more 'traditional' cross -white and large in France, more narrow (closer to your pattern) and red in England, were 'centred'.

Maybe the 'metal' (silver = white or gold = yellow) 'lining' the cross would be of the 'regimental' metal (of the coat buttons) = same as the tricorn lace? Then the cross would be 'lined' with yellow / gold for IR5.

I agree with Jeff, the central cross would probably be of a constant color -why not Cavenderia blue? It is not far from a light blue associated with Virgin Mary, very Roman Catholic!
The facing color -or an 'exaggerated' shade of it, such as the 'mermaid pink' for IR5- could be used for the whole field for the older regiments, for two (diagonally opposite) 'quarters' for the younger, the two other corners being, say, the color of the waistcoat, or stock, or any pecularity of the uniform?

Flags generally followed the old rules of heraldry -intended to insure contrast and visibility. Thus white and yellow were 'metals', all other solid colors 'enamels', and the basic rule was: no metal on metal (white and yellow not in direct contact), no enamel on enamel (thus, for instance, no direct contact between green and blue: a 'metal' should be 'sandwished' between them: re. the white 'lining' of the red crosses on the British flag).

You're right, on the Continent the Leib colour had generally a whole white field.
You can leave the cross white =: delineated by a narrow black line (as in France), or of the same color as on the regimental flag -then perhaps also 'lined' with the regimental 'metal' and then a narrow black line? Or a line of the facing color? But on the Leib colour the facing color can perhaps better appear on a device in a shield (as you did for the regimental flag of IR-7) - probably set in the upper, left-hand (closer to the staff) 'quarter', to be visible even with little wind and the flag only partly unfolded (as on the Swedish Liffana = Leib).

The image of Saint Sebastien is a very good idea! Maybe in some kind of shield or roccoco round frame, over the center of the cross?

The Might of Cavenderia is building at a splendid pace! Compliments!

PS: I appreciate the citation of Graf Carl Gustav!

Prinz Geoffrey said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Prinz Geoffrey said...

Sorry that last post had too many typos had to delete it. Thank you for the information. I toyed with the idea of using the metal color in the IR-2 flag. I thought of putting sebastian in a circle in the middle but thought it might look too Prussian. These are first drafts and I will square them up and work on them some more. Jean Louis your fictional characters make my day, I would have named him Eisenfaust though. The gauntlet pic was nice. I finished IR-2 von Bear in 10mm and am starting IR-5 Aurora tonight so I should have the first 10mm Brigade done soon. I also have IR-6 Christie, IR-7 Graf and IR-8 Jung in the works.

David said...

I'm a little boggled (i.e. confused) as you made no reply to my comment on my blog saying I'd be willing to have a go at designing a flag for Cavenderia, I've had no email from you about it yet and the only mention I can find is your comment about NBA and David Linienblatt possibly doing a flag for you in the previous post on your blog.

Now you are designing your own flags, am I to take it that the servivces of David Linienblatt are no longer required? I don't mind if so, as my time for doing these things is very limited at present. I'd appreciate some clarification, please.


Yours sincerely,

A confused David aka D Linienblatt.

Prinz Geoffrey said...

Very sorry David. The flags I generated were just a rough in so my 10mm troops would have something to carry until I could submit something to you. I didn't want to send you an email without any ideas. I am a project manager and I like to give as much information as possible on a project to someone before asking them to perform a task. Sometimes I think things through too much. I apologize. I would like a flag with a Saint Sebastion icon in it and perhaps the caligraphy WG,for Wilhelm Geoffrey and maybe some ivy. I will email you tomorrow. Sorry for the confusion. I could tell by your blog that you were very busy and did not want to bother you until I could answer your questions about what sytle, animal, etc. Additionally the comments on the blog have been great for bouncing ideas as you can see by the two posts here. I am ramblihg. Yes please, I would very much like for you to design the Cavenderia flag. thank you.

Capt Bill said...

Prinz Geoffrey,
Sir David is the purveyor of flags, standards, and ensigns for the Reich Duchy of Beerstein and his expertise has been a source of great joy! Our troops have won magnificant victories under his banners and hope the same success for your realm...Wilhelm

abdul666 said...

Prinz Geoffrey,
a few, totally unsollicited, afterthoughts!
- Regimental flag: for the 'green-coated' regiments, 2 'quarters' of the facing color, 2 of the coat color?

- Enhanced 'contrast' between the regimental and Leib flags (± following the Swedish pattern):
. Regimental: the icon of St Sebastian over the 'front (closer to the staff), upper' canton, not too large; the regiment number (in roman numerals of the regiment 'metal' over the center of the cross, replaced in special cases corresponding to a peculiar tradition, by an heraldic shield (e.g. IR-7).

. Leib: reversed: a (large, but not as much as the image of Virgin Mary on Austrian flags) icon of St. Sebastian over the center of the flag;
on the 'front, upper' canton, either merely the rgt. number in the facing color -covered by the shield for IR-7, OR (more decorative but more difficult to obtain?) a regimental heraldic device in the facing color: a red bear IR-2, a green harp IR-4, a deep pink mermaid (or Virgo?) IR-5, a black gauntlet IR-7... No need of shield here, since the backgroung is white, except again when corresponding to a peculiar tradition (IR-7, the device was 'sewed' over the flag at a later date); yet for IR-1 and IR-3, the number or device may be surrounded by a crowned wraith?

In France the colonel's colour (corresponding to the King's / Leib elsewhere) was 'all white': a white cross over a white field -visible, albeit barely, since the cross was made of additional pieces of cloth. A similar solution (yet the cross outlined with the regimental metal?) would increase the difference between the 2 types of flags, and the St Sebastian icon would better stand out?

If the wargame unit is small, up to 24 minis, with 2 flags it may look more like a colours party than a regiment. A solution (part III) may be to have a single flag with 2 different sides, one 'Leib' and one 'regimental'. Since the 'Leib' "took the right", the 'Leib' side would be to the right of the flag bearer when the flag is floating backwards. Historically in some countries (France...) the 2 sides of the flag were often quite different for the mounted troops ('Horse' standards as well as Dragoons / Hussars guidons): this can be extended, as a convenient expedient, to infantry flags?

‘Carl Gustav’ was ALSO the name of a Swedish anti-tank RPG,itself merely an improvement of the German ‘Panzerfaust’ of WWII ; and ‘armored fist’ in a German context reminds of ‘Goettlieb von Berlichingen, the man with the iron hand’… Actually I believe I processed in the opposite direction, from the iron hand (to give some 'flesh' to the character mourned by the regiment) to the name Carl Gustav?


abdul666 said...

"a crowned wreath", of course: I fear a "crowned wraith" would not look very Catholic!

Prinz Geoffrey said...

Took your advice about the swedish design Jean. I asked David to make the regimental standard a cross with a small outline and St. Sebastian in the upper left quadrant. The leib flag will have a large St Sebastian surrounded by a wreath or thorns with the regimental symbol or number in the upper left hand quadrant. I also said it would be cool if he could throw in the initials PG or WC prinz geoffrey or wilhelm cavenderia, maybe a scroll, crown etc. I left it to his artistic license. Thanks for the layout ideas.